First Corinthians chapter seven, again, it says, For a season in order to separate, but then it says, So that you go back, married couples to go back so you do not get tempted by Satan because of your lack of self-control. I didnt bring up [Greek 00:52:36]. Debate: Do Protestants Have the Correct Old Testament Canon? For a long time, a noted Christian apologist has publicly staked out a position that challenges the literal claims in the Book of Genesis but another apologist warns that position is a dangerous denial of truth and scripture. Dear catholic.com visitors: This website from Catholic Answers, with all its many resources, is the worlds largest source of explanations for Catholic beliefs and practices. Well, oh, can I have a [inaudible 01:22:11]. Look, weve got 737 people watching and only 492 likes. Can you give one example in the New Testament where it describes God or Jesus being a preemptive savior instead of a redemptive redeeming savior? Even if it is talking about sin, if its talking about being saved from sin before one came into existence, preemptively saved, then it still fits the context. Thats what I believe. Even if you have to have some things in essential form, I think he would have to pick someone pretty late in church history, at least over a thousand or 1500 years or 1800 years. Coming to the industry in 1990, he soon discovered that the practice of Real Estate by most was not at the level of professionalism that he had envisioned. They also didnt believe the Gospels or other New Testament documents were inspired, so they dont have a great track record when it comes telling us what is and isnt Scripture. We must be careful, of course, that in Marion devotion, sometimes people use very flowery language that they shouldnt necessarily be taken literally because they love Mary as the mother of God who leads us to her son. Okay, Trent. Because I believe that, I think Steve would agree, baptism is at least an ordinance we ought to carry out. Jude 9 talks about the archangel, Michael, contending with the devil disputing about the body of Moses and taking the body of Moses, the dead body of Moses, that being assumed into heaven. He says, Trent, the proclamation on Marys immaculate conception says that the fathers unanimously believed that which is false. If Matthew wished to convey Marys virginity was perpetual, there would be no need to add until she gave birth to a son. She wouldve simply ended with he kept her a virgin or added throughout her marriage. Okay. Yeah. Itll make me feel really good if nothing else. The first is if you are watching right now and you are not yet subscribed to this YouTube channel, click subscribe, click the bell button. Steve. Instead, they describe Ezra bringing scrolls to Jerusalem and a process of later works being written that gradually developed into what they call a relatively complete Jewish Bible. But they also acknowledge some Jews accepted the deuterocanonicals as Scripture and that many Christian communities embraced these works as part of the Bible.. And as Jimmy Akin has pointed out, if Mary needed to be sinless in order to give birth to the Messiah, then her mother would have to be sinless and her mother would have to be sinless all the way back to Eve and so it doesnt work. Sure. Dr. Tony Costa and Steve Christie, The Issue of Canon and Sola Scriptura - The Council, Presuppositional Apologetics Round Up: Third week of August 2021 | The Domain for Truth, Response to Sam Shamoun's post Purgatory debate recap of Dr. Michael Brown against William Albrecht - The Council, Responding to Gary Michuta's Abel to Zechariah Counter-Arguments with Steve Christie & Paul - The Council, The Marian Dogmas Contradict Scripture, Trent Horn Vs. Steve Christie - The Council, Necessitarianism: Conceive of the Possibilities. What about the deuterocanonical books of Scripture written in the 400 years before Christs birth? WHY PROTESTANT BIBLES ARE SMALLER: A Defense of the Protestan Not Really "Of" Us: Why Do Children of Christian Parents Aban http://stevechristieauthor.blogspot.co.uk/. I mean, its quite possible theyre born of different mothers, but theres no evidence for us to pursue that route. Steve Skojec, Christian Apologetics, and the Problem of Faith June 2, 2021 Esther O'Reilly Patheos Explore the world's faith through different perspectives on religion and spirituality! So it must be used in some other way. He has authored over 170+ books.Andrews is the Chief Translator of the Updated American Standard Version (UASV). And then she was placed to be serving within the temple. He says, of Jacob and Esau in Rebeccas womb, they were not yet born and had done nothing, either good or bad.This means children who die in early childhood represent millions of examples of people who never committed a personal sin in their entire lives. He also did color commentary for the University at Buffalo Bulls football team on WECK radio. When Mary said, I know not man, in Luke 1:34, does this indicate a vow of perpetual virginity? Advertisement "God gave us the greatest apologist of this. Now, does the Bible teach that everyone has sinned? Moreover, there was diversity of thought among Jews until the second century after Christ over what constituted the Hebrew canon. It has nothing to do with Mary being the ark. But there are many problems with this speculative argument. But while infants may not have committed a personal sin, they still need salvation in Christ because they inherited original sin. Regarding her bodily assumption that Pope declared infallibly, if anyone should dare willfully to deny that which we have defined, let him know that he has fallen away completely from the divine and Catholic faith. This is actually based on Jeromes incorrect translation, where he used the word ipsa for she, rather than the corrected translation, which is ipsum for he, which is actually supported in Romans chapter 16 when it says, Jesus is the prince whose heel would be bruised.. And they talks about how they offered cakes on alters to Mary. Steven is related to James P Christie and Helen J Christie as well as 1 additional person. Second Corinthians is clear, God made him who knew no sin to become sin for us. So I dont know if that answers a question but probably the bodily assumption. However, the earliest evidence for this alleged event comes 600 years afterward, in the second century after Christ. It says in the plural, May their camp be a desolation. Many of you know I now have a Catholic Lo-Fi channel. Thread info Bookmark this thread Trash this thread. I will click the four-minute mark. Check out this great listen on Audible.com. I also want to thank Trent for agreeing to our second debate and we hit over 800, I saw in there, which actually our first debate, so praise Jesus for that. And Steve has said, Well, we know theres an exception because the Bible says that Jesus is the exception. So clearly, then, that means the Bible can make universal statements, but sources of divine revelation can give us those exceptions. So my point would be that if we would show that devotion to the means through which Jesus died, why wouldnt we show that similar devotion through the means by which Jesus was born? When it comes to savior, I would just challenge Steve, where does Luke 1:46 through 48 talk about sin? That seems to be something that went without contention. After chemotherapy and radiation treatments in Buffalo, he underwent two successful surgeries at the Cleveland Clinic in Cleveland, Ohio. The Pharisees did not have unique doctrinal authority over all other Jews since, Jesus said the Pharisees shared the seat of Moses with the scribes (Matt. As I showed earlier, you have people like Martin Luther, Ulrich Zwingli, who were firmly I would not call them Catholic. All right. This is a separate event than from what Luke is talking about earlier in Luke chapter two, verse seven. So this question is for Trent. This is also the view of St. John Chrysostom as late as the fifth century, venerated as a doctor of the church of Roman Catholicism, who also believed Mary thought Jesus had gone mad. WHY PROTESTANT BIBLES ARE SMALLER: A Defense of the Protestant Old Testament Canon - Kindle edition by Christie, Steve. He became sinner. And the same is true for Mary. It is forbidden to any man to change this, to oppose and counter it. Thats why Protestant scholars since the nineteenth century have taken the position Herbet Ryle did in saying the legend about the Great Synagogue was wholly untrustworthy., Christie also cites Geoghan and Homess book The Bible for Dummies in favor of the Great Synagogue, but on page 11 the authors make no mention of the Great Synagogue or of Ezras canon being identical to todays Protestant Old Testament. 878 talking about this. Adelphos is not my issue. I think it will be. And number two, when it comes to veneration, worship, honor, give someone the respect that theyre due. In order to show these dogma contradict scripture, Steve must do one of two things. Thanks for being a supporter mate. By providing an accessible and growing repository of teaching materials, as well as providing a means of networking within the apologetics community, ourvisionis to be a significant educational resource for churches, campus groups, and Christians around the world. Isiah wrote the deliverer will come out of Zion. These later Marian developments were not like Orthodox dogmas and doctrines of Christ that developed, such as his divinity, his dual natures and wills, and the Trinity whose concepts are unmistakably spelled out in Scripture, either explicitly or implicitly. She goes on to say, My spirit rejoices in God, my savior for or because he has regarded the lowest state of his handmaiden. Mary then describes how God saves people from threats in this life by exalting the lowly or feeding the hungry. Its also been mirrored on my channel, you can go and check that out. And if that is your authority, thats what makes you a Protestant. It is not mentioned in any book of the Bible, protocanonical or deuterocanonical, nor in any ancient nonbiblical witnesses such as Josephus or Philo. Mark chapter three, even though it doesnt explicitly state that these are Jesuss siblings, the Greek word literally means to be, like of that individual. And again, thats the view of John Chrysostom. Yeah. I just want to make sure. So I would say that James and Joseph are also the son of the sons of Joseph. I mean, aside from the dogmas, I think one of the ones that make me cringe is that Catholics worship Mary, where every time I hear that, Im like And I brought it up, but I explained I came about it through a different way. Wait until after the debate, but if you want to go there now, its about that. I addressed this a little bit during the debates of the specific Greek word [inaudible 01:21:19], which is translate full of grace or highly favored, even Jimmy Akin from Catholic answers that. Discover Geoffrey Stephen "Steve" Christie 's Biography, Age, Height, Physical Stats, Dating/Affairs, Family and career updates. Luther and Zwingli though, probably they did believe that Mary was ever Virgin. It is never used for a female non-sibling relative in either Testament, nor in its Greek. Steve Christie is a former Canadian American football placekicker in the National Football League, who, as a member of the Buffalo Bills, became known for his ability to kick clutch field goals, even in poor weather. While the New Testament does use different Greek words translated until to refer to the condition continuing after the event, such as [foreign language 00:02:21] on its own, [foreign language 00:02:25] is never used once this way in the entire New Testament. So multi-part question here. Im just asking is there an example of anywhere in scripture where its used to describe siblings they have the same mother but they have different fathers? We discuss his books, with the most popular being Why Protestant Bibles Are Smaller, and well as leading Bible studies in his home. Rather, this counterfeit Mary developed over several centuries based on false typologies, which conflict with Scripture, no different than what Mormons, Jehovahs Witnesses, and Muslims have done with Jesus. The connection of apologetics with evangelism is best summarized by Oxford theologian Alister E. McGrath: " So it is quite shocking. We receive no funding from the institutional Church and rely entirely on your generosity to sustain this website with trustworthy, accessible content. So whenever you are ready, Ill click the timer. Protestants disagree. We use Christian Apologetics to discuss, interview, & debate for God's existence, & Christianity. If you guys could try to keep your answers to about two minutes each. James White: Steve Ray is a Dolt, Dunce, Imbecile, Idiot, and Ignoramus *** [] What is clear is that Ray has not seriously interacted with anything other than this kind of "Jack Chick/Dave Hunt . This is how God as savior is used in both testaments. Im not sure what your question is. It would behoove us, then, to follow in their example and praise the gift of Gods word that comes to us in these writings and critically examine arguments such as those presented by Steve Christie that would tempt us to reject a portion of Gods sacred revelation. Drive in with The Morning Ritual weekday mornings on KNST AM790Supervisor Steve Christie explains why he endorses Abe Hamadeh, Kari Lake and others and also talks about Pima County spending . Yes. Yet evidence of her sinful nature was her lack of exemption of the temporal penalty of death passed on to her from Adams. But maybe are there other verses that have talked about that Mary gave birth to other children and so she would not be a perpetual Virgin? And I truly believe that because youre a nice guy. So that would mean if youre the firstborn, that youre going to have other children. Heres one, Trent, I dont like and I wonder what you think about it. First theres a dogma of Theotokos, Mary being the mother of God. According to Dead Sea scholar Emanuel Tov, There is a special layout for poetical units that is almost exclusive to biblical texts (including Ben Sira) and is not found in any of the nonbiblical poetical compositions from the Judean desert (Textual Criticism of the Hebrew Bible, 102-103). Heres my thought on that. By contrast, some quoted Sirach as a book of Scripture, though it was eventually excluded. I would like to demand that everybody hit that like button right now. And in the new Testament, the specific Greek word for savior is used about two dozen in times, and every time that its used in scripture, in the New Testament, it always refers to God or Jesus being a savior of salvation and saving someone from sins, which is why I brought up Acts chapter five and The Epistle of Titus. Ravi Zacharias, the prominent Christian apologetics author and speaker, died Tuesday at the age of 74 following a battle with a rare form of cancer. He is the host of the popular, award-winning film series on salvation history, . No, it doesnt say that but it doesnt say Joseph was bodily assumed into heaven and the same three dogmas could apply to Joseph as well, but we dont make as much why is there not a dogma those dogmas apply to Joseph. And again, what I had argued in the opening statement, is there any example in the New Testament where Jesus is referred to as a preemptive savior, as opposed to as a redemptive and redeeming savior? Okay. The point I want to raise there is that adelphi has the same semantic range as adelphos. Is primary meaning of adelphos that you have the same biological mother and father? Add another name to the list of Buffalo Bills greats who have endured a traumatic 2014.The Bills' all-time greatest kicker, Steve Christie, Ex-Bills kicker Steve Christie reveals his successful . Thank you very much, Trent. So lets take a look at them. And I think we both agree on the assumption, Steve said it the Bible does not say Mary was not assumed into heaven, and in order to try to show her assumption would contradict it, we had to use a very speculative argument about that she did not need to be rescued from death, even though that doesnt apply to every case where God would take someone into heaven. I think that what were quibbling a little bit here on the assumption, I think we actually have more things we agree on than less. He might say that its unlikely, he doesnt accept it, but theres no contradiction also if she is thankful to God for being preemptively saved from sin. And she doesnt mention sin in this part of Luke one. And I already cited Greek scholars like Bill Mounce and New Testament scholars, like Richard Bauckham, who agree with me that adelphi has a broader semantic range than what Steve has brought up here. Massive thanks to those who support us at locals and on Patreon. And most commentaries agree that this passage parallels what Hannah says in First Samuel 2:1, and she likewise doesnt mention sin. I think it might be best if I just go back and forth, so like one question for Steve and he answers, then Ill do a question for Trent. The Counsel of Trent 46.3K subscribers In this debate, originally hosted at Pints with Aquinas, Trent Horn engages Protestant apologist Steve Christie on the question of whether the Marian. We discuss his books, with the most popular being Why Protestant Bibles Are Smaller, and well as leading Bible studies in his home. I run morning podcasts here on locals. Going forward, then, Mark Sorry, Steve tries to say that Mary committed a sin in Mark Three when she and the brothers of the Lord go to see him, but the text doesnt say anything about Mary doing anything sinful. So this question is for Steve and this comes from Kevin, whos a local supporter. Trent, you have 10 minutes to cross examine Steve, whenever you begin. Its a way to begin exploration of it. Shameless plug. In 1993, Christie set a Bills record by kicking a 59-yard field goal in a regular-season game. In his study of Josephus and the Hebrew canon, Jonathan Campbell points out that the roughly contemporaneous text of 4 Ezra assumes the existence of ninety-four Jewish scriptures. 18. Or, since Jesus said the Pharisees in his presence murdered this person, it could refer to one of Jesus contemporaries. Until his death of cancer at 74 in May, Zacharias had been one of the best-known figures of American Christian radio and TV for decades. My colleague, Tim Staples, has written an entire book on Mary called Behold Your Mother. So this would be an argument saying that it is fitting, therefore it is true. Its always nice to see people who are willing to put forward rigorous argument and engage others charitably. I actually had the opposite situation and as I began to study scripture more in depth, I found to be deep into the Bible to cease to become Catholic. The first man Adam is from the earth, earthy. It is fitting, therefore its true. The question for Joseph-. And again, what I argued is how adelphi is used consistently in the New Testament Greek, not how its used in a Greek translation of the Old Testament. Just as eating from the tree of life wouldve resulted in Adam physically living forever likewise, Adam, eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, result put into him physically dying. Get a Quote *The mortgage payment quiz is for estimation purposes only. So Im going to put a link in the description below. Okay. 23:2), some of whom were not Pharisees. It only states that Jesus was an exception to this because he had a divine nature, not a sinful nature, as well as a human nature. The proclamation on Marys immaculate conception says that the fathers unanimously believe that which is false. (Hebrews 11:35b, 2 Maccabees 6,7), Is the Apocrypha or Deutero-Canonical Books Part of the Bible? So Steve would probably say that, Well, Jesus has sins, but there our sins, not his sins. Okay. Now the doctrine of original sin is true, but the Bible does not explicitly say that it applies to every single individual without exception. So to talk about things that came up in this debate, there are things that came up that were not debating, things like Sola Scriptura, the history of the Marian dogmas. She is not mentioning sin in any case. So to summarize then Steve Well, actually lets see. Christie eventually got cut on October 4. It is used this way consistently in the New Testament, as well as in the Septuagint where it is used over a hundred times, such as the Sister Kingdoms of Israel and Judah who worship the same one true God of the Old Testament. The word adelphos is used numerous times in both the Old and New Testament to describe people who have had the same parents. Finally, this debate is not about Marian doctrines or theological opinions about Mary. Trent had mentioned about, Well, it could mean sister-in-law. Well, the apostle John actually quoted from the Old Testament, from the Septuagint, frequently. Themissionof Apologetics 315 is to provide educational resources for the defense of the Christian faith, with the goal of strengthening the faith of believers and engaging the questions and challenges of other worldviews. A person could be a Protestant, because we have to understand what a Protestant is and we have to go back to the Reformation for it. Search. A protestant scholar Craig keener says neither the title favored or graced one nor the promise the Lord is with you was traditional in greetings even if the person had been of status. Since the Catholic church is certain that the brothers of Jesus are anything other than biological siblings, meaning uterine siblings, why are they not able to be just a certain specifically who they are? Did I have one other thing here? Well, actually one other point I will bring up is that some people say the Bible teaches that Mary sinned, because it describes her going and offering a purification in accord with the Mosaic law. Not just on the Marian dogmas, but also regarding salvation. And also Greek scholars do not rule that out. The Greek word translated until does not exclude normal marital conduct after Jesus birth. And I really appreciate that you are arguing against Catholicism based on what she teaches, right? Yeah, sounds good. So when does Marion devotion turn into idolatry? He says, Steve. There are a lot of great resources at catholic.com. Hes saying that every ethnic group is guilty of sin, whether youre a Jew or a non Jew. But when you look into church history, its kind of hard to answer that question because even Trent cannot say about somebody that agreed exactly the way that he does. Well start with an easy one, the Bodily Assumption of Mary. And since the context of Hebrews 11 includes the men of old [who] received divine approval (v. 2), it follows that the books describing the Maccabean martyrs were part of the Old Testament that was used by the author of the letter to the Hebrews. Then theres going to be a time of cross-examination, and then were going to do 30 minutes of Q&A. Yes, and I also have a video about Protestant inconsistent use of typology where Protestants have no problem even seeing very rough connections, typologically, to Jesus in the Old Testament, but then apply a much harsher standard when those same typological connections or better ones show Mary in the Old Testament. So for an ancient Greek speaking person, why would adelphe have a narrower semantic range than adelphos when the only difference here is the gender? And this is what I did in the opening statement. Mary always leads us to her son. As I had mentioned, the way a dogma can contradict scripture is if its explicit, implicit, or partial. assumes Paul retained a pharisaical identity.
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